Hi, There are many people I know and also many comment sections I see online that are just parroting Israeli and US state department propaganda and I feel like it is driving me insane. They seem to repeat arguments using almost every common propaganda technique available and it seems like the majority of people is just falling for it without any critical thinking and this is depressing as hell.
They are portraying fascism as the only solution to all problems and as a justified position but don’t even want to name it as such, saying everyone else is the fascist.
I think I am going mad what should I do, I feel like arguing against it is like speaking to a wall most of the time.
For me, it’s necessary to sometimes just retreat into a leftist bubble to remind me that there are sane people around. Lemmygrad helps with that.
Being politically active helps as well, because it makes you feel like you are combatting the propaganda and capitalist power at least a little bit, which puts your mind a little more at ease.
I’ve had some luck by working backwards to things you agree on, then stepping forward until you start to diverge. You need to be genuinely engaged in their thought process, though, so prepare for psychological damage.
E.g. for immigration, you can start from “this is super fucked up and I don’t think we should do it. Why do y’all support it?”
It make take a few "why"s, but I think their reasoning will ultimately end up at:
- Lots of people are struggling financially, that’s bad, and we need to fix it.
- Because of supply and demand, having more people in the US lowers wages and increases prices
- If we have fewer people in the US, wages will go up and prices will go down
- There are lots of people here illegally. Kicking them out will fix the fact that people are struggling financially
Which is wrong, but at least is a logical progression that you can challenge. They believe that the social benefits of deporting people outweigh the human costs of doing so. It’s “for the greater good” and “you gotta break a few eggs to make bread.”
You now get the privilege of talking about the real cause of low wages and high prices being capitalism. You’re in your element and should have a DEEP bag of examples. As usual, tailor to your audience, make it simple, and try to avoid trigger words like any -isms.
If you convince them that capitalism is the problem, not supply and demand, then there’s no longer any benefit to deporting people and it’s only a fucked up thing to do.
They’ll have weak, residual arguments like “but they’re breaking The Law” or “but maybe it’s a little supply and demand too, as a treat?”
At that point, you’ve won. You can provide weaker pushback on these, and start looking for a way to end the conversation.
There is no world in which it ends in “oh. actually you’re right” - our brains take time to change. Your goal is just for them to think about it by themselves.
Thank you, also for the examples, but I am from Germany, so the US examples are not really applicable for me
Ah, yeah that’s a very US-centric example.
Idk if y’all are dealing with the same “feminism is actually bad” stuff we are, but I posted this comment shortly after the above post and using the same template.
Disclaimer: I’m decently new to discussing with people on the internet, where it’s harder to ask a lot of questions. I think the general logic tracks, but in person I wouldn’t recommend jumping to conclusions like I did there.
It really really helps to have friend circles that share your ideology.
If you’re interacting with the same people over and over again over a long period of time, being consistent and being unapologetic (but not necessarily hostile unless you have a good reason to be, especially in the real world) goes a long way. People will notice that you have a backbone and are committed to upholding a different vision from the mainstream, genocidal ideology. The cracks will build up in others’ worldviews as they’re confronted with information that emotionally affects them. Don’t expect facts and logic to just convince others that they’re wrong, you gotta make use of ethos, logos, and pathos to convince someone, and that’s a process that takes a very long time.
It also can be useful to read this essay so you can gain a better understanding of the function of propaganda and learn to pick your battles. If the people you’re arguing against have a reason to buy into the propaganda even when it’s obviously false, you can only get so far by questioning the propaganda on its face: actually convincing them will require you to get them to confront that root cause, which in many cases is really difficult because it requires them to recognize they benefit from imperialism and genocide.
Thank you.
It’s not just related to Gaza etc, to everything else too (immigrats etc). Everyone is just kicking down on others of their class instead of seeing who really plays us out against each other.
The thing is, I wrote this here because sometimes I feel like a psycho with the anger I have towards this fcked up system we live under, while other seem to be okay with it and just dont care.
And I dont mean online conversations btw, I deleted social media long ago already, but I read youtube comments of news sites sometimes (granted, many are bots, but still).
Other comrades irl told me that it is best to just be a likeable person when trying to convice a propagandised person of your views, but I cannot help but get ‘enraged’ sometimes when some people repeat the most heinous shit ever without even knowing what they are really repeating there and then defend it over some optics politics or some percieved behaviour of the opposite political group. I don’t know, the more I have to deal with these idiots I understand some actions of people like Stalin more and more even if they seem harsh from a first look, but when you get into it, it does make sense.
I definitely get it. In one argument I even said “do you want me to to First Reformed mode or what” (watch that film, by the way, highly recommend to any leftist) because I felt extremely frustrated at how people couldn’t even follow a simple argument about how it was necessary to warn students about the role of military contractors before they signed up to work with them. It’s really tiring to be the one crazy person saying something that feels obvious to you, but everyone else looks at you like you’re a flat earther.
But I would also warn you about the sense of elitism that this position brings with it. It’s really common that when you start reading Marx and everything about the world starts clicking together you’ll feel like a high wizard, it’s something “like a university degree in truth” (from Disco Elysium) that makes you feel very special. But those beliefs aren’t useful unless they can be put to work by convincing sufficient numbers of people of their utility and getting them to enact a program. And the nice thing about Marxism is that it doesn’t just explain how capital accumulates, it also explains how political power works on an ideological level, and why it’s difficult to surpass false consciousness. I don’t know if you read the essay, but I’ll go ahead and recommend it again because right from the start it addresses this frustration but it offers a perspective that will help you.
And more concretely, I don’t know how much I’d recommend being “likeable” as a tactic. It’s nice to have good optics. But sometimes you’ll have better optics and a better message if you come across as mature, measured, and considerate than just likeable or charismatic. Personally, I like to listen carefully and take time before replying if I’m in a good faith political conversation (if it’s bad faith then I channel
) and I’m usually more concerned with offering the other person the same feeling of “wow everything makes sense now” that you get when you read theory, than I am trying to come across as likeable. But if you’re doing outreach, mutual aid work, or similar then a more charismatic tone is obviously more appropriate.
my secret? i can’t keep my sanity together lol
like i know that the liberals in my life will be like that due to propaganda, and that trying to help them when they do not even feel like they want to change is like trying to tell a donkey to take a shit in the urinal
anger doesn’t help me, and trying to help libs is the sure-fire way to piss me off
