Antisemitism will truly be defeated when Jews can live anywhere in the world without fear of persecution, not when they’ve carved out their own ethnostate.
Unfortunately, I feel like these times call for explicit clarification in what should be obvious.
“…when Jews can live anywhere in the world without fear of persecution… for being Jewish” (but like everyone else can be held accountable as individuals for crimes including war crimes; that being Jewish doesn’t turn prosecution into persecution)
The fact that this needs clarification is evidence that we do not deserve a future as a species.
JFC are we fucking idiots that this needs to be spelled the fuck out.
Valid distinction thanks to Israel.
Repeat after me, antizionism is not antisemitism
Yes, but I’m also anti-religion. So does that by extension also make me an antisemite?
This gets into a WHOLE problem. Jew refers to the religion, and the ethnic group. They often take the benefits of both, and people will switch which definition they are using actively during a conversation.
I can say I hate Christianity because membership is a choice. I cannot say I hate black folks, or gay folks.
Antisemitism is a hating of Jews. That’s not ok.
As OP implies, it’s better to say you hate Zionism. It’s a more specific belief that someone chooses.
That is exactly why these groups CHANGING THE DEFINITION of antisemitism to include anti Zionism is alarming and overtly evil. They’ve learned the protections of having the word Jew refer to both, and are now trying to bind Zionism in there too!
Only because you chose the nuance must you die by it
Kind of reminds me of the brainwashing the media instituted about how covid was somehow a China thing and shortly after, people were attacking Asians because somehow or rather if you’re Asian, suddenly covid was all your fault. It was also just another excuse for racists to act out. Humans really are just that dumb.
This is so true. I remember hearing about the two Israeli officials who were shot and I was stuck thinking: " was this motivated out of antisemitism and he just happened to hit legitimate targets instead of some innocent folks, or was the guy actually acting out of rage and sadness for what he’s seen in Gaza?". Nowadays it seems like you can’t even tell immediately - like you’ve gotta wait for more info. It was a relief to find out that everyone who knew the shooter agreed that he was not antisemitic, and chose to platform justice for Gaza when asked about the shooter.
People using the term anti semitic often fail to realize that the semitic people and culture not only contains Jews, but also levantine Arabs.
however, the name Semitic is a nazi invention that was originally directed towards Jews. part of their scientific racism.
it’s kind of meaningless.
like Dwight claiming an Indian coworkers is Caucasian because he claims her people came from the Caucasus.
but yhea, if we step out of semantics, fuck Israel for this genocide and using the Jewish diaspora as shields.
^^^Yes, more people need to know about this because it’s a meaningless “gotcha”
however, I’ll prefer if we included all Semitic people in the term.
because in a way, they are all related people.
Palestinians are ancestors of the ancient Canaanites just like jews are (if we ignore a lot of mixing with other genepools).
More importantly, it’s used inappropriately when talking about violence towards/hatred of the vaaaaaaaast majority of Israelis because they’re Europeans…
The people that should be hearing this won’t accept it as truth. They actively deny the Eastern European heritage of ashkenazi Jews.
By that standard, it’s innapropriate to call Black people “African American” because they’re from North America.
Are you alright? You can definitely say they’re African (or anything more precise like “West African” or “from the Horn of Africa”) by ethnicity, they’re just American by nationality. What else would you say? The white folks in America are European by ethnicity (mostly Germanic) and American by nationality, and their nationality didn’t just randomly turn them Native American, lol. Hopefully you were just being silly and not willfully spreading confusion…
You asserted that, because Jews lived in Europe, they ceased to be real Jews.
No, friend. I meant: these European folks may or may not be “real Jews”, but they were never Semitic.
Unless you are denying that the Jews started out in what is now called Israel, you are, in fact, stating that people lose their ethnicity by living somewhere else.
Er go, Jews are not real Jews.
Another truth that must be addressed is that most Jewish people either actively or passively support the genocide of Palestinians. Therefore we need people like me within Judaism to call it out and people outside of Judaism to agree it’s a problem.
most Jewish people
Whether or not that’s true, I don’t think it’s the sort of claim that should be made without supporting evidence. Bear in mind that the Zionist lobby is powerful, vocal and ruthless, many people may be afraid to speak out against it. If a group can be made to feel like they are the minority, it can seem as if they really are.
I dont think there are any trustworthy statistics so ill be honest, I mostly went off my personal experience as a Jewish person and having interacted with my community extensively
I mean it is a true statistic.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/
Support for the IDF among American and Israeli Jewish people alone accounts for more than half of the worldwide Jewish population. It’s not antisemitic to point out that most Jewish people worldwide support the genocide.
What is antisemitic is to dislike Jewish people in general because of it.
Just to clearify, I am Jewish. When I point out that most Jews are Zionist im making my frustration about my people clear.
This certainly appears to be true.
My government, and Israel, have made it clear that my opposition to the genocide in Gaza makes me an antisemite. I have maybe only once read of a Jewish person or group opposing this view.
So be it, I know which side of history I want to tell my young nieces and nephews I was on, so I have no problem whatsoever with any of legal issues this might cause me.
Of course, the price for Israel (and silent Jewish people) making the judgement that I and most socially liberal people are antisemites, is Jewish people are on their own, other than the far right/nazi aligned groups who support their actions in Gaza, in terms of international support from people not governments.
Edit - and as an aside, I think this new alignment indicates that a lot of the 20th century Western notions of political ‘left’ and ‘right’ are dead, ‘liberalism’ is a political double-speak (do you mean economic or social liberalism? Because they are at odds), and it isn’t Russia v. the USA, because American oligarchs and wannabe strongmen are in perfect alignment with their Russian counterparts.
Code Pink, Jewish voice for peace, Norman Finkelstein, Gabor Maté, Ilan Pappé, Noam Chomsky, Judith Butler. These are some of the Jewish folks opposing settler colonial Zionism. There is a strong Jewish tradition of being on the right side of history. Sure, Judaism is not a monolith, and sure, maybe (and this is a really big fat maybe, and I’d love to see actual data either supporting or refuting this, which is conspicuously absent from this discussion) the majority of Jews support Israel’s actions, but there is a sizable portion of Jews worldwide that oppose settler colonialism, and and even larger portion that opposes the ongoing genocide.
Better watch out. Lemmy will ban you for saying a majority of the Jewish population. Support a genocide because they are blood thirsty. Just be careful. Zionists control the subs and site.
“Lemmy” doesn’t ban people, but certain instances might.
aka, if I get banned from Lemmy.world, I am not banned from Lemmy, just from lemmy.world.
Conspiracy much?
i poked through their recent comments and a lot of them are like this. i find it suspicious that they commit the cardinal mistake of saying “lemmy” rather than “.world” or something.
zero trust in this kind of posting lol. these are serious accusations and should be leveled seriously, not a bazillion times responding to rando comments.
A recent account at that. Possibly part of the last Reddit wave, not yet aware of the cultural differences here.
Dear newbies - Welcome! We’re glad you found your way here. All we ask is that you leave all your Reddit-baggage by the door. You won’t be needing it.
I got permabanned for harassment after commenting the Shadow tge Hedgehog copypasta.
You’re thinking of Reddit, I was banned for saying “Israel murders children” on three accounts, after the third they had enough of my non genocidal talks and perm banned me.
My first lemmy acct was banned yesterday for saying just this. I was on Lemmy.Futurology. Glad I made a back up on Lemmy.World.
I a man with genetics of Jewish heritage. From what the 23andMe said. Was called a Nazi because I used Jewish instead of Zionist when saying. Zionists are blood thirsty. I learned my lesson. Just blame the Zionists. Because you can’t hold entire groups responsible. Even though a vast majority of them support this genocide. And I have met Americans who had signed up with the IDF to fight in this genocide. It’s all a cycle of violence that no one is willing to end.
??? yeah yikes wow definitely don’t say that that’s so bad bro
Ok fed
The mods and admins here arent zionists, they’re zionist sympathizers and genocide apologists
I don’t advocate adventurism, but important to note that violence against jews is different than violence against Israeli state actors.
Just in case this meme is referencing the recent shooting of two Israeli Embassy workers. Again, I don’t advocate adventurism, but it’s important to recognize a distinction between violence directed at an ethnic group and violence directed at government officials.
other violence than those two victims going on unfortunately. both preceding and since, and civilians.
Like the time that Israeli shot those 2 Israelis in the US.
or those poor people who got attacked with a flamethrower literally today (this is breaking news btw im not fully caught up so apologies for any error)
Unless there was a different incident, i’m pretty sure the one you’re talking about was a molotov cocktail, not a flamethrower.
again, already apologized. breaking news: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/colorado-fire-attack-live-updates-rcna210305
hi spujb did u know the jews invented hash browns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latke
yes! shoutout jewish ppl
They also created the bagel, no? Love me a plain bagel as the buns if a breakfast sandwich. God. Now I’m hungry.
Went to the mall today and one store, a toy store I think, had a big Israel flag hanging by the entrance - like I get that you have an identity at stake here but none of us want to walk under that particular flag to spend our money right now, and you could see that reflected. And that’s not anti-semitism, it’s just voting with our feet.
Next, it’d be nice to get our tax dollars to do the same thing…
✡️ ✅ awesome, lovely, beautiful (even if it’s blue)
🇮🇱❌ yikes, not great, at best evidence you are privileged and aren’t paying attention, at worst evidence ur a nasty zionist
and while we’re at it same goes for the old 🇺🇸 😬😧
Watch out. Lemmy admins and mods will call you a nazi and ban you for pointing this out.
dude stop fearmongering. there’s already been mod action on some comments in this post and it was the truly horrible stuff.
if you have specific examples of people, words or places where you saw this kind of repression, say it specifically, but saying hazy generic things like this is cringe and unhelpful.
I was in World commenting from a LEMMY.Futurology account. Thats now banned. Just pointing out the blood lust I have come across from Zionist individuals. I get why they want blood. But I come a family who went through a genocide of our own. I know what real hate looks like. We have to be bigger than the hate inside. We have to stop it from taking over us.
No they won’t mate, fuck off.
All the “buts” in this thread are reflective of why these Israeli government arguments work.
Can we add a 3rd truth that hamas is a death cult that has no place in today’s world. I like all 3 things equally
And #4 that a people under brutal occupation has a right to resist, even armed resistance?
Which part of Palestinian combatants being joined by non combatants and then invading and murdering and kidnapping 1200 civilians is considered “resisting.”
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only if there’s a fourth truth held also equally that hamas only exists due to the obscene conditions israel has created which also have no place in today’s world yet have been funded by some of the most wealthy nations, thereby entangling the web of both israeli and palestinian blood across generations decades and borders :)
Nope. Israel and the international community gave the Palestinians an opportunity to build industry and improve their conditions and live peacefully. They gave billions and billions for this purpose without restriction (apart from military - which as history shows, appears warranted). The Palestinian people voted in Hamas who had a mandate to destroy Israel - from what I can tell is based in religious fundamentalism. Instead of building their economy and educating their population they used the money to build tunnels and pay for thousands of rockets to be fired into Israel. This was a terrible choice and there’s no denying it was a gamble on the Palestinians behalf. One that if it payed off and went to plan (as was in their mandate) would have slowly lead to the destruction of Israel. Bad gamble. Didn’t pay off, the Palestinians have to accept voting in a government who said they will destroy Israel and then consistently carrying out that plan, has at least in some large part lead them to their current circumstances.
On a similar note. Why has there been no talk of how Benjamin Netanyahu was about to go to prison for corruption - then he tried to destroy the checks and balances on government. Then he got caught knowingly funding hamas’s October 7 attack. Clearly all to hold onto power yet no one talks about this anymore?
No
And what an irony that you blame all of that on Palestine, but then also complain about the man who made sure to disrupt the people who wanted peace.
It’s only irony if you realize that what I am saying is that neither side is right or innocent. Both sides have expressed their shitty nature. Pretending one side is right does an injustice to those on both sides who actually are innocent and willing to bargain in good faith.
Zionists should do the world the favor and just go away from the public eye. Y’all are garbage opinions parading like nazis.
Can you point me to the part of my comments that make you think I’m a Zionist?
I know, it’s the part where you put an equivalence between the Zionist occupiers and the resistance to that illegal occupation. Regardless of the ideology of the occupied people, they have a right to armed resistance enshrined in international law. The occupier has zero rights in this context, just the responsibility to end the occupation and until then, provide for the needs of the occupied, which Israel has utterly disregarded on both accounts. So saying “both are as bad” in this context makes you a clear supporter of the Zionist atrocities, the resistance is exercising it’s human right to armed resistance to occupation. You know, like when jewish Partizans killed during WWII. Calling that equally as bad as the Nazis would in effect make you a Nazi supporter.
This user is a victim of propaganda.
No this one is?
So. When is enough dead children enough for you? Will you stop when they’re all dead? Or will you just move onto another country?
You know, hamas murder people for being gay right? How many dead gay people is enough for you?
I have yet to see any proof for this claim. As far as I know, Hamas doesn’t kill queer people, at least not systematically. They face violence, no doubt about that and that’s already bad enough, but stick to the facts here instead of making shit up.
Only if we add in recognition that Hamas would not without Israel. You can kill two birds with one stone.
Man, someone should have told Bibi that before he funded Hamas for years. That’s embarrassing!
Most likely by design. It annoys me that this doesn’t get brought up everyday
Also not mentioned too much is how Egypt and the other Muslim nations refuse to help or take people in from Gaza.
Why does it have to be Muslim countries?
They’re geographically closer for one thing. They have a shared faith, this war is a rather relugious one. They shouldn’t be the only countries accepting refugees, but they should certainly be among them.
Thank you for providing a thoughtful response.
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Ya never ever bring up that annoying little fact. Most of their neighbors would refuse them entrance. And a lot of of them are happy to arm them and fund the extremist behavior. It’s almost like the whole world is involved in this little proxy war! A microcosm of WW3
Why does it have to be Muslim countries?
I got banned from a .blahaj community for saying “hamas bad” for, I quote, “Genocide apologia”.
Some peep here are literal extremists.
Third truth, it’s not just Israeli leaders who are promoting the violence against Palestine, and many of those that do use their Judaism as a shield against criticism.
fourth truth, more White American Protestants defend the genocide than there are Jewish people in America so you gotta be careful
The fuck I do! Supporters of the genocide deserve to be called out no matter their religion, but it also needs to be called out when people support the genocide and utilize the charge of anti-semitism to justify it.
At this rate, “anti-semitism” is starting to mean anti-genocide.
Anyone who doesn’t believe in a two-state solution is a terrorist to me.
that was a general “you gotta be careful” and i didn’t mean you specifically XD
…until you went and composed that thoroughly self embarrassing message. now i mean it. be careful, you’re treading strange waters that are going nowhere.
Perhaps this is a case where we’re misunderstanding each other (no doubt more so in my case.) I must be missing something because I don’t find the intent behind my response to be embarrassing, but I am open to the fact that it reads differently than I intended.
What I reject is that I need to be afraid of speaking up against Israel (or to the Zionists abroad) or to be afraid of the “anti-Semitic” label. To your point, there are reasons to be afraid, to be careful. But to me we must speak the truth despite those reasons. Part of that truth is undoubtedly that the Israeli government is empowered by the Christians in the US and in turn the US government.
I am NOT anti-Semitic, but I’m confident in my belief that calling out ANYONE (regardless of their religion) for their support of the Palestinian genocide is the right thing. If someone is to label that anti-Semitic I believe they are weaponizing that term.
May I ask pointedly, what specifically are you saying to be careful of?
When you referred to people who practice Judaism as a shield to criticism your make a very general statement against Jewish people, not all Jewish people support Israel genocide, which is what netanyahu is using as a distraction to stay out of jail. Usually when someone says they “are not this or that” it means you are what you said you aren’t.
again, that was a very general statement. we gotta be careful. like, “rule of thumb: a genocide merits care.” as in, “taking care of what you do and say is a good thing.” or “based on previous statements, we can conclude that the future needs are not given, but rather chosen with care and planning.”
there was no specificity in my statement whatsoever so yeah i guess if you were finding some that was a misreading on your part and i apologize. hope this clarifies.
that said i do stand by that, even given a misunderstanding, your escalation to “at this point anti-semitism is starting to mean anti-genocide” was purposeless and without evidence. if i am reading you right we have a lot in common and it’s not helpful to open messages with “the fuck i do.”
You are wrong. ‘We have to take care when it comes to genocide’. No you don’t. You have a right to be angry and a right to shout about it. You are engaging in genocidal apologism.
To tolerate intolerance creates an intolerant society. To tolerate genocide is fucking disgusting.
oh no another (intentional this time) misreading XD imagine unironically claiming that “take care” means the same thing as full-on apologia.
you’ll want to pick up a dictionary because you my friend have lost more than the plot.
woosh - I wonder what brought you into this thread…
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I wouldn’t say israeli leaders are antisemitic, but they accuse their critics of antisemitism to pursue their authoritarian and colonial agenda with impunity.
Those are both true. Respond to that lie by criticizing the Israeli leaders who are propagating it.
There are more Jews outside of Israel than within. My family emigrated from Poland to the US to flee persecution by the Bolsheviks, prior to the founding of the state of Israel. I’ve protested with JVP against the Palestinian genocide in Grand Central. My story is not unique.
❤️🤝
Also not mentioned too much is how Egypt and the other Muslim nations refuse to help or take people in from Gaza.
People in Egypt are dirt poor and can hardly stay afloat themselves. Why expect them to take the burden for a crisis that they didn’t cause and don’t support? (Is Egypt corrupt as fuck and is are the people running the state rich as fuck? – yes.)
I’m so tired of being trapped in the middle of this psychotic Jewish psychodrama. Can we just agree to stop killing, starving, orphaning and mutilating kids?
US religious fanatics say no. Sorry.
best we can do is arrest and brutalize college kids while appointing real antisemites to high places in the white house apparently
Germany’s government is also one million percent behind the gaza genocide.
Which is wholly ironic when you think about it. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is modern day Palestine. Israel is basically spawn camping the second-coming.
You’re actually hitting on something significant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
Some Christian Zionists interpret the prophetic texts as describing inevitable future events, and these events primarily involve Israel (taken to mean the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob) or Judah (taken to mean the remaining faithful adherents of Judaism). These prophecies are seen as requiring the presence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land, the central part of the lands promised to the Biblical patriarch Abraham in the Covenant of the pieces. This requirement is sometimes interpreted as being fulfilled by the contemporary state of Israel.
Not “spawn camping” but there is a very real belief in some sects of Christianity that the Zionist project is necessary for prophecy fulfillment.
Interesting. That’s a new one to me. There are so many different interpretations and predictions through 3x translated holy books.
There are also those antisemitic Mel Gibson Christians who believe Jesus won’t return as long as non-believers reside in the holy land.
That’s not ironic, it’s intentional.
Why would Christians want Israel to kill the second coming of their savior?
It would seem that most of the world’s leaders are super into that, actually.
